Email and Retention Marketing in 2024 with Jimmy Kim and Chase Dimond

Introduction and Key Takeaways

0:00the most interesting thing that I kind of want to call out is iOS 18 was kind of talked about in the past you know week or two and there's kind of two main things that I took away from that number one is the inbox categorization so the basically Apple kind of mobile devices mobile app they're going to have four categories kind of coming out in which they're going to sort your mail and essentially it's primary the promotions the updates and the transactions and they're going to do a better job and a really good job filtering these inboxes so it is going to be harder to get to the primary and one interesting thing with that is now that there's this thing called summarization I think this all is going to affect I think later this year but essentially what's going to happen is if Brands send multiple emails in the three categories so promotions updates and transactions it's going to group them together and Apple's AI is basically going to say based off the

0:50subject line the preview text and the contents of the email this is what it's [Music] about wow all right what's up guys how

Event Kickoff and Speaker Introductions

1:01are you good we got to get a little energy going there yeah awesome all right guys I'm excited to kick this thing off with my friend Chase here we've got a lot of cool things to talk about we're going to start off with a little bit of intro Chase so let's kick it off so who am I for those don't don't know I'm the founder of s lane that's who's putting the the event together I've been in what's that called again I've been in email marketing digital marketing for over 15 years and I'm a former DDC brand owner the whole story of sunlan was that I had a problem I needed to solve it this is back in 2013 and we developed something on our own and eventually it became a business in 2017 and it's been one heck of a ride Chase I want you to introduce yourself now there you go what's going on guys I'm a self-proclaimed email marketing nerd I run an agency where we've done hundreds of millions of

1:45dollars for our clients pretty cool I was actually recently named by Shopify as number one e-commerce influencer to follow and I've owned a couple Brands and agencies and really excited to be here yeah so Chase and I we were talking about how we could come up with something really fun to talk about here today so we're going to talk about the state of email so before we get into that I think it's really fun how many people is this your second time being at Commerce Round Table put the raise of hands up there all right cool so welcome to a lot of the firsttime people that are here and you know the funny thing about Commerce Round Table is it's not as new as you might think it is many of you guys might have been here for the

Commerce Roundtable History

2:21first time so Chase I'm going to break down the story real quick about Commerce Roundtable all right so Commerce Roundtable started off in 2019 in 2019 what happened was we had made this pivotal thing we had raised some money we were La building this new platform for e-commerce and air my VP of Partnerships was coming to me and he was like we need to put together something to bring together the people that we want to sell to and at that time we decided that it'd be really easy to go after like this Market that we loved which was like the CD CBD and cannabis market so we were able to go get like 50 people and put them into a room this is like 2019 and we did this little fun thing and you can see on the picture there that was the original Commerce Round Table it was truly a round table where people discussed about the challenges of growing in a market that was different and we were talking about email and how you could use and leverage

3:10that in being able to grow their business however what happened co co happened to us all and when Co happened to us we knew that we had to make a pivot all of us everybody I'm sure everyone's been on a digital webinar event but we ran a ton of them that's Caitlyn and Amir up there and we ran what 12 seasons of this thing the biggest thing that we were known for not only putting out really great content but we were also giving away thousands of dollars of prizes on these events and people really enjoyed that so now this led us till 2023 and in 2023 events started to die you know remember when the World opened up everyone wanted to get back in person well we ended up doing this and last year we ran our very first event which was just right outside on the Pier over there over the hotel and I I still remember distinctly to this day I looked at Caitlyn and I was looking off the pier and I was like that

3:58back there that's what want to rent we need to get closer to the water and that's why we're here today so that's the story of Commerce Round Table the whole intention was not to be about Sun Lane it was the intention was to be about community and learning and growth and a lot of the things you'll learn through this entire thing today we're going to kick it off with an email talk but the reality is a lot of the talks that we'll have it will be about acquisition and you know stories and Amazon And subscribe and save we've got some crazy panels together you know one of my favorite panels is that end of the day panel on day two which is why agencies suck I think that's a really fun little panel Chanel and something we didn't announce here we're giving away one brand in this room a $100,000 giveaway the end of day two tomorrow we'll be calling live raffle will'll be giving away a $100,000 Chase for a brand to give away in a sweep stage so if

4:42you've ever wanted to run a sweep stage before but didn't want to invest the money well if you're in this room at the end of tomorrow and you get called up our friends over at shared sweeps will be giving out $100,000 what do you think about that chase I don't know about what do you do with that what you what are we doing with that list building right 100% getting ready for Q4 right that's all right well you know and big thanks to everyone who came out some pictures of last year and how the event looked like and you know last year when we did this event we weren't sure if we could top it but pretty excited about this year big big shout out to my team here for being able to put this thing together we're very excited here so big round of applause for them one more time thank you team again publicly for this all right let's get to the fun

Email Marketing Trends and Challenges

5:24stuff here let's talk about email Chase I I really want to talk about what happened this year so let's go ahead and kick it off so let's let's start off so what what happened this year Chase yeah I want to say I think one this year there's been a lot of noise but I think over the past 2 or 3 years there's been tons of things that have happened everything from iOS 15 to now we're getting into iOS 18 so yeah deliverability became a Hot Topic I remember talking about that and saying hey this is something that you weren't really aware of and then of course the big yah hugle thing happened right what happened your yahle yeah so I think well first on the Del side it's it's crazy to me that this wasn't something that we were having conversations about but it seems like everyone now is is freaking out because playing field has gotten different and it's gotten harder but the the main thing that's going to happen in q1 and 2q of this year was Yahoo and

6:07Google basically made changes to make it stricter for bulk senders so anyone that's sending over 5,000 emails a day has to abide by these rules so you have to have your email authentication so the dkim the Demar the SPF the oneclick unsubscribe we're going to look about how that's kind of impacted Brands you know basically losing subscribers in a little bit and then your spam complaints have to be under 0.3% sent so to kind of put that into perspective if you send a th000 emails you're allowed at Max three people marking you a Spam and the goal obviously is to be under that and I think you had one note though yeah and the big thing about this that people need to understand it rolls on a rolling window it's not about a single email campaign which is really important to understand it's a rolling window of time that is and I think it's seven days with Google right now so the timeline went a little like this we had in February 24th we had Yahoo kind of kick off in 20 in

6:57April we had to strengthen a little bit and then we had a go into full effect in junee of 2024 and so we got a lot of data around that we're going to share but the last thing that I thought was really interesting that chase is talking about yeah so email sunsetting so I'll talk about this in one second but on the on the marketing side a lot of us know about an automation called the sunset unengaged and it basically is a way kind of a last Stitch effort to let people know hey if you don't engage if you don't want to be on our list we're going to remove you and the same thing is happening on the ISP side so Microsoft AOL Yahoo Gmail if someone hasn't logged in or been active in their account for 12 months for Microsoft and then 2 years for the other they're actually going to close down your email and essentially what happens is if your email closes and you're still mailing those people they're going to bounce and over time

7:41those email counts might actually be turned into spam traps so if you're not monitoring when someone opted into your guys's list and your guys' engaged segments it's going to be potentially a disaster as these emails start getting shut down by the isps Yeah and we have more data than ever nowadays right you know when they purchase if they haven't purchased they've been up opt in it really is the I think the biggest thing about email sunsetting that was important was it was all about people who had opted in had not purchased but they were still engaging with you or whatever a lot of those false signals started that kind of happen we'll talk about those signals in just a second here so let's go into email

Email Metrics and Data Analysis

8:16metrics I'm really excited about this so let me tell you guys the breakdown of what we did so first thing we did was we looked at our customers and we looked at our 100 of our top customers that we have in our business and we pulled all the data together to formulate all this stuff it was based on four .6 billion email sends and 270 million SMS sends so we took a huge chunk of data Chase and we wanted to put it together and in fact we have a breakdown here that we're showing on the screen here email was 41% unified we had email only and SMS that was the breakdown of these users on purpose and this data set is for 2023 and 2024 so we can see a snapshot of January all the way to August of this year so you excited check this thing out yes all right so let's let's go on so first things first chase this was interesting yeah surprisingly so brands are sending a lot more emails so almost

9:0460% increase year-over-year and I think one of the things that we were talking about and thinking about is you know why are they sending more and I really think it comes down to like the inefficiency of other channels right So Meta Google everything is becoming more expensive it's becoming harder so brands are really dependent and reliant on email to drive more revenue and ultimately more profitable Revenue so Brands quite literally are hammering subscribers in boxes just to drive more revenue and to keep up with last year's numbers yeah and so with that sending of more emails take a look at this this is one of my most interesting slides because there's a lot to talk about here how many people were in this room were doing email marketing or knew about email marketing in 2019 yeah like half the room this is great and in 2019 we used to talk about 12 to 15% was a good open rate yet now we're talking 60% is what we're seeing and you can see the trend occurring now

9:54what happened Chase so I was 15 if you guys remember that came out around Q3 of 2021 basically apple and those folks that are using Apple Mail allowed people to opt out of having their emails tracked so basically what happened is now apple is automatically loading everyone as having opened an email so we're unsure of you know did you open did I open is it legit is it not legit so there's inflation now of open rates yeah and you'll see I think it's been really interesting to watch as you look at those Brands and seeing it like January 2023 we aiming for like a 38% open rate and now people we're talking 50 60% which kind of tells you how realistic this metric is yeah yeah and and one other thing worth mentioning is at this point in time 97% of people that have or had iOS 15 have opted out of tracking so basically 90 Almost 100% of people that have iOS 15 have said I don't want to be tracked so you can't

10:50track their opens you can't track their location their IP all those types of things and about 52% of all our D Toc sends are actually happening on Apple devices right so more than half of the sends we're doing we don't really know whether someone's legitimately opening or not yeah and that leads to obviously as you guys could probably figure out it resulted in a decrease of click to open rates obviously if you're sending more emails and you're getting more false opens you're starting to see a decline occur and there's a little Spike there you guys will all see the little Spike that was the Microsoft bot issue that a lot of people saw and occurred you can see that Spike occurring but you can see the trend line that's happening with this what do you think about this yeah it's crazy I think this used to be one of the metrics I really rely on on to see if you were doing an AB test on content you know what type of content is

11:33moving the needle right so if you could see everyone that open and then the clicks based off the email before you used to have a lot of data on you know was this specific copy or this specific design performing better and now it's hard to tell and this is only going to get worse right like as more emails are being kind of inflated and opened this metric continues to get worse and therefore becomes entirely unreliable yeah absolutely in fact the only steady metric that we saw and I think this is really interesting is it's a click rate and I know it looks big because of things but it's just on a 1 to 1 and a half% and again you can see the Microsoft occurrence occur where you can see it but overall it's been a steady trend line and it's actually been declining yeah and do you guys remember a couple months ago like we all woke up to what we thought was amazing click rates but it wasn't the case I remember on my personal newsletter I was getting

12:18like 1 or 2% and then I got like overnight I had like 5 or 10% I'm like holy I did something I I don't know how but I increased the op The Click rate it turns out I wasn't that good everyone had the inflation you guys remember that at all Yeah couple weeks couple months yeah okay so no it's been it's been interesting to watch this but you can see that it's been stable over the year and real the reality of what what it's really telling me is that like what that's the metric that really is the only metric that's staying stable within it in fact I think this was the most interesting we're sending more email well what's happening in there well one of the things that we do in our company at s lane when we're doing compliance and deliverability we look at a metric called unsubscribe to action UTA and what that means is it means that how many people are taking the action of unsubscribing they're clicking on the

13:06unsubscribe button and actually finishing the unsubscribe action right I hit manage preference and then leave a it tells you do they know who you are but B will they actually take off and make that decision and as you can see we've mail Apple Mail privacy increased that and we continueed to see that increase any thoughts on that yeah know I just want to double down like the the part that were mentioned before with the one clicked unsubscribe now it's almost so easy to opt out that unfortunately if you don't send relevant personalized good content and you're sending more frequently this is just going to continue to spike so it's all about when you are sending more frequently making sure that you are sending better content and more relevant content that people actually want to receive and care about or else it's going to go through the roof yeah and you can see the spike occurring that was at male privacy when all the things started to change what's that called male privacy and the

13:54unsubscribe being up put on the top as a one click we started to see that kind of start increasing in we're continuing to see it increase as time goes on all right so let's let's talk about money because this is great we're looking at the high level data I also want to back into the other side which is what are we seeing on email conversion so we pulled together those aovs down take a look at this and we're seeing a decline of aov of average order values of a conversion inside of an email which could be attributed to probably sending more email right yeah yeah I think absolutely sending more email and we're going to see come some other metrics and foiler alert they're all decreasing right right and and the reality is I think people just aren't shopping as much online there's less disposable income I think more people are actually going to retail than before while we were all at home during Co so yeah the numbers are a little bit scary but maybe

14:41they're just kind of leveling out I I guess it'd be interesting to see we didn't pull this like what did pre-2020 look like yeah no I think you're right I think we saw the co effect happen people are spending more we're starting to see it stabilized and over time when we have enough data you'll probably be able to create a trend line and we'll see the anomaly that was the pandemic ultimately in fact we can't talk about email without talking about well the SMS conversion because we need to know what's going on there too and take a look SMS also declining on those average and these are all based on last click actions just so you guys know last click before conversion so that's the data that we're pulling off of what do you think about the SMS side changing yeah it's it's crazy it kind of makes me think about like you you still obviously have to do email and SMS you just have to be more strategic and probably level set kind of forecast and an expectation

15:25and again you you do have to keep sending more it's going to probably decrease as you said more but like the only cure for all this is is really volume the only cure for mitigating all these things we're talking about is just volume well I also think with SMS especially in 2022 we're in the height of it right we're still like still trying to figure things out we're still using our phones a lot the real life experience retails up right so we're seeing those other things continue to move up all right let's keep going here and then we talk about the overall decline so we took an average order value of all the stores that we have of all the data and we pushed them together and did an average of it and you can see that the overall average order value has slightly declined over time too yeah yeah I think this is the the summary right that why we're all hurting and feeling kind of the reality of the past 12 18 months is things are getting worse

16:10in a lot of ways but hopefully this week this weekend we're going to learn about ways to hopefully be kind of the minority that's increasing not kind of decreasing yeah absolutely and I think this is all really interesting data and one thing that I think a lot of people will start to question is like well what does the split look like what does it look like when it comes down to that last click attribution so we took that data and said well where are people actually still buying from and here's the data that we have again unified people who are making the purchase who have both email and SMS this is the data that we're breaking out on the last click conversion we're still seeing 81% of those conversions occurring from email and 19% from SMS thoughts on that yeah I was I was surprised by this I I'm an email guy I know you're an email guy so it's kind of happy I'm great to see this but I had an expectation that was

16:56going to probably be something like 7030 I didn't realized it was going to be kind of as drastic as it is but you know I was thinking about my own behavior Chase I don't know if you do this but sometimes I'll be walking down and I'll get an SMS and then I'll think hey that's cool but then I don't want to buy it on the on my phone often and I'll jump back to a computer and make the final purchase and I may even click on it I think there's some truth to that story that's occurring especially the older generation I know you know I in my 40s and I still don't trust the mobile I guess as much as I trust the desktop and I make those purchases and I know jenz is a little bit different there and you could argue with the right collection of gen Z brands that you might see a flip in that numbers yeah that's interesting so so that was measured on last click and it was based on only the the unified

Future of Email Marketing

17:36so let's jump into 2025 I think this is where I get really most excited about is we're thinking about the future where are we heading you know where are things heading right now with email so let's break this down I'll start with you chase because I think you're you you love the AI and let's talk about it yeah I think the the most interesting thing that I kind of want to call out is iOS 18 was kind of talked about in the past you know week or two and there's kind of two main things that I took away from that number one is the inbox categorization so the basically Apple kind of mobile devices mobile app they're going to have four categories kind of coming out in which they're going to sort your mail and essentially it's primary the promotions the updates and the transactions and they're going to do a better job and a really good job filtering these inboxes so it is going to be harder to get to the

18:24primary and it's going to be you know interesting to see kind of how open rates and kind of how the performance of these other things happen but the first one is the categorization so there's more kind of folders coming in which your mails are going to be routed and one interesting thing with that is now that there's this thing called summarization I think this all is going to affect I think later this year but essentially what's going to happen is if Brands send multiple emails in the three categories so promotions updates and transactions it's going to group them together and Apple's AI is basically going to say based off the subject line the preview text and the contents of the email this is what it's about and they're going to basically just summarize them so instead of before you could see them as individual emails they're going to basically be threaded or and they're going to summarize it themselves which really we're going to talk about a bit but your copyrighting has to be on point when you do have

19:11images you really have to make sure that you're adding alt text like all these things are going to be so important because apple is really leaning into AI yeah that's a big one if you're still doing image only emails like the bigger part of all text is going to becom more and more important because you don't want Google to decide what they think they see on your image you need to tell it what they're doing and you need to hopefully be able to start learning and optimizing around that I think that's interesting and so is the spam filters I think just as much as we as marketers and humans and operators learn more about Ai and the use of it you're also being taught at the spam filter rate and they're looking for different things that are happening that's definitely there the second challenge that I think is more challenges starting to happen within third party versus first party I think the rise of first party continues to happen I think that's been a message for a while now but we're see

19:57starting to continue to see that occur we're seeing more of a focus of the change right you know I think what's interesting is that how many people here would know what an rfm model is raise the hands handful you guys so the rfm mod recency frequency monetization is an old school email marketing tactic that's how I learned back in 2008 2009 we used to download the spreadsheets look at ltvs look at click rates look at cycles and purchases and it makes segments based around those right what I think what's happening right now is we're taking it all the way back and people are starting to talk more about it's CLTV meaning if I have customers because the whole point of retention is to take your customers and make that second purchase right and so if you think about CLTV and you think about hey I've got an $80 customer $120 customer $180 customer you should be treating all three segments of that customer differently that's what the model basically taught you so you want to take the $80 customer

20:50and make him $120 customer you want to take the $120 customer make him $180 customer right each of those segments needing and requiring different things we also are looking at click rates obviously for the reason and the last part of the challenge I put this as a challenge because growing inboxes are big right now right we just talked about 60% more email being sent out we're anticipating we're anticipating that that just means that you got more noise to cut through plus you have the AI filtering youate the AI stuff like all of these things are going to be new challenges for Brands more than ever and the big thing I say and take away as we've been going through this Chase is I feel like the job of an email marketer is getting harder more more specific and more important right it's no longer can you just throw some images up and make some conversions all right and then the last one here Chase yeah the last one this one's been really interesting all the

21:38states not all but a lot of the states are starting to roll out their own privacy so the big one for us in California is the CCPA and a lot of them aren't too dissimilar to like the whole gdpr that happened in Europe but a lot of the states now are adopting kind of their own rules and laws and regulations and you guys have to be careful and mindful of this cuz there's a whole breed of lawyers out there that are just awful lawyers that are just going to go after people that are kind of in violation of these I've I've gotten hit a couple times with some of these thankfully never never ever got sued never ever went through but there's lawyers out there that are just kind of having fake emails they're kind of monitoring they're sending you these letters and it's kind of scary so really make sure that you're understanding the different states rules and regulations because it's happening like everything is moving towards more privacy everyone is looking out for

22:26the customer in in their minds right Apple says they're looking out for the customer or they're really looking out for themselves but there is becoming more privacy in in in the market right now yeah I mean it's the gdr gdpr push right it's happening slowly I think the big thing I thought was really important is that last line over 130 countries now have their own version of privacy laws related to email and email privacy now and that's just going to continue to grow because well people don't want spam they W unwanted emails and I know you guys aren't sending spam but the reality is anytime people are getting unwanted email so they are no longer in purchasing they're not interested in your brand that is Spam at the end of the day and that's the way that they want to classify it too so I thought that was really interesting yeah then one other thing to say is like it's been really interesting to see like the agency and kind of the brand

23:12evolution of their teams like you know in the early days you could have a founder or a single marketer managing the copy and kind of the the design right it wasn't great design and then it moved to wow you need to have beautiful designed emails so now you actually need email designers and now it's like now that deliverability is becoming kind of a a topic again you're now needing either your marketer or specific deliverability specialist to know email deliverability and now it's like with privacy you know do you have to retain now a lawyer should your marketer be kind of stting up on the rules and regulations is just kind of adding more cost and complexity so hopefully we can all do more with less but these are all things that you guys need to be thinking about in your agency maybe on the agency side you have someone that's kind of in charge of all these that can let everyone all your clients know all your team know and on the brand side right

23:57maybe you and some buddies that have other companies find someone that can be a lawyer that can just send you guys kind of updates that you guys can all split the bill on so these are all things to be mindful of yeah and you know as you guys look at this and we've just told you all the Doom and Gloom the reality is there's things that you can do and so we want to talk about what you should be doing and what you should be thinking about as you're rolling into 2025 rolling into Black Friday all of these things are really important things to think about so let's start with the first and I'm going to start first because I love this stuff but audience right I I believe wholeheartedly audience management the core key of retention I think a lot of Brands don't do a good enough job if you're just sending a 90-day engage bubble you're doing the things that are more or less the modern day BL batch and blast you're not thinking about it anymore I mean

24:39there's so much data and behavior optins actions customers repeat customers right you really need to think about it and the thing I talked about earlier what I call the MVC formula which is basically what rfm is but broken down in an easier sense it's all about figuring out your most valuable customers splitting them up into different cohorts segments and talking to each to help them drive that next value right so again taking an $80 customer and making him $120 customer takes different effort than taking a $120 customer and making him a $180 customer and if you start thinking like that and start using data around that you can start segmenting your audience deeper and it doesn't mean that you have to go crazy with like completely different messages it's just little tweaks to that message right you might not have to build the same brand Authority you might not have to Hype him up the same way you might not have to give him the same discount these are all things that come in and in fact that

25:28also leads up to copy and design yeah so as we kind of mentioned like with the whole iOS thing that's coming right they're going to be sorting your guys' emails based off Ai and categorizing and putting a summary together so copyrighting not only now is important for the end user that's receiving it right we want them to receive messages that are relevant we want them to take actions but now it's also super important for actually making sure that the contents of your email are being displayed as they should so you know subject lines the preview text you know we mentioned before and we'll mention again adding kind of the alt text behind images like the more things that you guys could do both for the human as well as for kind of the the robots the AI the better and and with that your brand matters a lot right how people feel about your brand how people talk about your brand how people think about your brand so really investing into brand that's one of the few modes you guys

26:17have to really stand out in an inbox that's crowded you know if you send emails that are entertaining or helpful or funny whatever it might be people are going to look for your emails and they're going to want to open your emails and they're going to open your emails based off the from name right either a person's name or a company's name so you want people to engage with you because they like you absolutely and the last one is consistency I think this is becoming clear in 2025 you know I if you anyone who follows me on social I one of the things I love saying is like send more email and I say this with a vague thing because it's it really can mean anything but the reality is it's going to help your spam filters right if you're getting a th000 for three if you send 2,000 you have three your spam filter number goes down secondly it's the noise I think the biggest is you're either in the noise or out of the noise

27:00everyone who checked their email this morning I know you checked it but he didn't go and say well that brand didn't send me an email so I'm going to give them a better value no that's not how the world works anymore there's so much noise now these days you've got to be in the noise or you're not in the noise at all and that's where I say consistency is super important where you should be pushing if you're sending one two emails a week you should be moving that up to three four even five or more some of the best brands in the market are sending a daily email at this point and there's a reason why they're the best brands in the market because they're maximizing that channel ultimately and staying within the noise and of course it's it's not about timing it's about timing but not time right it's not about oh it's you know 90-day engage it's really about when's my next purchase cycle when's my behavior right you guys all have a sales

27:45cycle Behavior within your audience you know it may take an opt-in 7 Days on average to make a purchase we should be looking at that and thinking about that and maximizing those time points to be able to bring them in because everything we do at the end of the day I know it's a creative role there's a lot of things but it's still data and the data shows you something very clearly and if you know that if someone opts into something and then seven days they purchase on average I'm ramping that up at day five four day day three four five and I'm pushing harder and harder on that message I'm giving more consistency on that message and I'm pushing them to make the big the purchase ultimately and that's really what we think about anything to add to that yeah I think the best way to kind of equate it is like think about like the intensity of Black Friday and Cyber Monday maybe toning it down slightly but like that kind of intention around driving revenue and

28:31really delivering for your customers throughout the entirety of the year and I think if you do that you're going to drive a lot more engagement in Revenue

Conclusion and Announcement

28:38yeah so so what's thatan so with that I think as we're wrapping this thing up you know one of the things that chase and I we we spent a lot of time working on this thing like putting together data dissecting data discussing the different things that we had and one of the things that we thought was really exciting was well we both nerd out on this stuff I know some of you guys are like email whatever but like us we care about this a lot and that's why we're really excited one of the things that we're working on and I know you guys need another podcast in your life but the reality is we're we're launching a retention and email and SMS dedicated podcast called send it and in fact we took it a little bit step further with us we're actually launching of course a newsletter because well we're newsletter we're going to do a very retention focused newsletter that we're launching which we're really excited to go share and Chase and are going to go out

29:22and you know hopefully continue to feed you the newest and best Intel in the world so that's what we're excited about with that guys I want to thank you guys all for being here thank you guys all I think we're going to have an incredible next two days thank you guys all thank you [Music]